Related to one post from a little while ago, I was reminded of a quote from something I reread recently.

From Every Day Is a Good Day, edited by Wilma Mankiller. With this specific quote coming from her intro to chapter 6:

The women at this gathering speak of love in grand, sweeping terms that embrace the natural world, family, clan, community, and nation. Love is not limited to immediate family or to a romantic partner. It is not doled out in small increments to a socially prescribed person or group of people. It is all encompassing.

LaDonna Harris speaks eloquently about the high value she places on her relationships with others, which she describes as “not letting go of people,” even her adversaries. A Cherokee traditionalist echoes this sentiment and speaks of the need to “live and care for one another in such as a way as to ensure that there will be no reason to let go of others.”…

The larger society’s endless conversation about whether gay and lesbian couples should be accepted and granted rights to marriage, adoption, and other rights was nonexistent among these women. They place a very high premium on respect: respect for oneself, for others, for all living things. It is highly disrespectful to label another human being and define them based primarily on their sexual preferences. These women care more about the human decency and dignity of people, and whether they are a contributing part of the community, than about their adult relationships with others.

(And that would be with some longer term different ideas about what constitutes a valuable contribution to society, yeah.)

I included the longer part before the bit directly discussing labels, mostly for additional context.

But yeah, I have also encountered some people who wanted to assume that a statement like that is exactly the same as the “don’t let yourself be defined by X!” discussed earlier. Very possibly because that invalidating, othering approach is most of what they have encountered up close.

(Very much like the difference between people honestly trying to understand and relate to someone else’s experiences, and the dismissive deliberately not getting it “Oh, everyone does that! ~~And you are making me very uncomfortable by even talking about this, jfc leave it already if you don’t want to totally alienate everyone around you. Weirdo~~” versions. Not at all the same scenario, but I do get the idea that a lot of people are mostly used to encountering the dismissive kind.)

When, yeah, that “don’t let yourself be defined by X!” behavior is one indication of exactly the types of disrespectful “boxes are more important than actual people” attitude being objected to there.

I mean, similar is part of why I have gotten more and more personally resentful of feeling pressured to choose from a certain assortment of boxes. And a good bit of the reason it’s hard to even try to talk about some of this stuff, even if you do make it very clear that the last thing you want to do is dictate how anyone else needs to be navigating or even relate to any of it. That’s still not what some people will hear.

I can understand why certain approaches do appeal to some other people. Not that it would even matter if I didn’t understand at all, because it’s their lives and experiences to make sense of and manage the best they can! The same approach is not going to make sense for everyone, though. It just won’t. And that doesn’t mean anyone is necessarily wrong.

Plus, pegs. It’s hard to even start talking about some things when you are coming at them from a sufficiently different perspective that you’re not necessarily even talking about what a lot of people would assume based on some surface similarities. More complicated when those things are also heavily enough politicized that pretty much everyone involved has been hurt in some way(s).

Not just thinking about the main subject of that quote here, but that’s definitely one aspect where it’s relevant.

Reminded of this again, with some framework that just doesn’t make much sense to me in the first place.

vaspider:

asynca:

I can’t tell you how frustrating it is to have been in the queer movement for 20+ years, to have studied queer theory, to have contributed to you potentially enjoying the rights you have today because I was part of a groundswell of lobbying and direct action in the 1990s….

…to have a 15 year old who’s spent maybe 8 months being political and has never inquired about queer history anonymously message me, “EXCUSE ME QU**R IS A SLUR LMAO OMG EMBARRASSSING AN aCTUAL ADULT WHO THINKS IT’S OKAY TO USE QU**R!~!!!!”

Dude, we are a slur. Queer folks are a slur to conservative straight people. Everything we are will be used as a slur by everyone who hates us. Gay is a slur. Lesbian is a slur. People will try to use all of our words against us. Don’t fucking let them get into your head to the point at which you’re telling actual queer people not to use the words we’ve used to unite ourselves and empower ourselves for decades.

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees

The notes on this post since I first reblogged it from @asynca are a wild fucking ride.

“It was never our word, do some research.” Child do your own damn research, it’s been our word.

“If you’ve been part of the community for 20 years get off of Tumblr and go take care of your grandkids.” Man I would not want to be you in 20 years, realizing that shit, you don’t stop existing when you become a grown-up and you keep having interests. How do you think your life’s going to be between age 20 and age 80? Is it gonna be that boring to be you? And holy shit my grandkids? If Asy is anything like me, who came out at 13, how you expect me to have grandkids at 33ish? 35? Y’all. Really. And these are the same people who wail ‘respect your elders, don’t call them queer, they don’t like it,’ but out the other side of their mouth say ‘you’re not relevant, grandma, go away.’

Mmkay. Just show your hypocrisy a bit more, I guess.

“Just don’t call people things they don’t wanna be called.”

Aight, so, yeah. First off, ain’t nobody calling anybody part of the queer community who ain’t identifying as queer. Queer is, and has been, a radical political and mostly blue-collar portion of the LGBTQIPA+ community. It is defined by its rejection of Corporate Gay (white, upper-middle-class, cis gay exclusionary ‘palatable for TV’ gayness) and inclusion of the entire community, and its political activism.

Guess what, if you ain’t queer, you ain’t part of the queer community. Believe me, we don’t want you if you ain’t queer, because queers ain’t afraid to get their hands dirty and actually fight. And I am so so so tired of people thinking that we’re trying to coerce people into calling themselves queer. If you wanna be part of this community, great. Otherwise, you ain’t part of it and no one is trying to force you.

That said, it’s important to recognize that attempting to censor people’s self-identity is and has been a tactic of TERFs, “purity” culture advocates, and people who have tried to shut out bi, trans, pan, questioning, ace, non-binary, genderfluid and other ‘non-conforming’ identities. It’s not a new problem. I grew up listening to Ani DiFranco (I know she has issues, that’s another post) and the song “In or Out,” which expressly, in part, is about belonging and standards in the community was released on Imperfectly in 1992. Like, really. Little Plastic Castle addresses it, too, and that came out exactly 20 years ago in 1998.

The kids on this site are not the first group to think that they can determine who is ‘In or Out.’ This site’s would-be censors are not the first ones thinking, ‘I can just demand that you not be who you are when it makes me uncomfortable.’

Demanding that we not use our identity words to describe ourselves because it makes you uncomfortable is not acceptable. No one is accepting of the idea that ‘gay’ is a word which should simply not be used. And yet, we are meant to simply write off queer and stop using that word, instead of helping people work through their issues and/or working further on reclaiming and/or simply be left alone to our identities without having to justify them. This thought process that we should just drop the word because it’s ‘bad’ is the perfect intersection of Tumblr’s TERF-sponsored exclusionists and Tumblr’s anti-recovery culture, and it needs to stop.

Kids need to stop hiding behind the idea that ‘older people in the community don’t like queer and have trauma with it,’ because we are the older people in the community, and I’m here to tell you, my trauma was around gay and dyke. Queer is the word that gave me back my life. Stop trying to use us as your Shields Against Being Called On Your Bigotry, because we’re not interested.

People need to stop saying ‘don’t call others that,’ because we’re not talking to you if you don’t identify as queer. The community who identifies as queer is who we are addressing.

People need to stop attempting to suppress the word queer. It’s not going away. We are not going away. Or, to bring back what I grew up saying:

We’re here. We’re queer. Get used to it.

Can you not compare exclusionists to authoritarians? You can be an inclusionist, fine, but do you know how ignorant and tone deaf it is to liken exclusionists to a dangerous political ideology with a body count in the hundreds of millions of people? For you to even make a claim to exclusionists being authoritarian for some stupid tumblr discourse is wildly disrespectful to marginalized groups who have actually suffered under the hands of authoritarian states.

freedom-of-fanfic:

korrasera:

I understand why you’re uncomfortable. You’ve got this idea that authoritarianism is only something that appears in totalitarian regimes that tend to target queer people like myself, so you don’t think it’s appropriate to compare exclusionists to authoritarians.

Only, I’m not presenting a tone deaf or ignorant analysis of the problem. The problem is actually that you don’t understand what authoritarianism is, and in your ignorance you send me a message like this.

Authoritarianism isn’t a political ideology, it’s a cognitive flaw that exists in all human cultures. Here’s a quick primer, pulled from similar things I’ve already said on my blog before:

Authoritarians are people who create a social power structure that requires obedience to a core authority, usually an individual but sometimes an ideology. They exhibit the following three behaviors as a core part of what they do.

Establish an in-group and then police it. People don’t just have to look like you, they also have to talk like you. If they don’t, they’re the enemy and you have to push them into the out-group.

Identify an out-group. These people are the enemy and must be attacked to keep the community safe.

Take your biggest, meanest, most violent person and put them in charge. They are now mom/dad and they will keep you safe.

Authoritarianism is, at its root, a cognitive flaw created by emotional immaturity. People who are emotionally immature build power structures that they think will keep them safe, and those power structures work by hurting other people. That’s why they have to imagine that they face an existential threat from people who pose no threat to them. To conservative Christians, it’s everything from leftists to Muslims. To TERFs, it’s trans women. And to exclusionists, it’s aces.

That’s why we keep pointing out that exclusionists talk like TERFs. Because they do. Because both groups are an expression of authoritarianism in the LGBTQ+ community.

Not satisfied? Neither am I, let’s go further.

Exclusionists are absolutely authoritarians. Here’s a short list of reasons why:

They have an in-group and they police it. To exclusionists, there is only the LGBT community. Anyone among those groups that don’t agree with exclusionists are policed in an attempt to exclude them from the community.

They have an out-group that they attack. Asexual people. And before that, bisexual people and trans people.

Their in-group doesn’t match reality. Asexual people have been a recognized part of the LGBTQ+ community for more than 50 years, but since that pokes a hole in exclusionism, they need to lie about it and claim that asexuality was a trend started by David Jay when he founded AVEN.

People in the LGBTQ+ community have been calling themselves queer for longer than I’ve been alive, but to exclusionists queer is a slur that must never be said by anyone.

Their out-group directly attacks people in the LGBTQ+ community in an effort to invalidate them, erase them, and deny them resources that they have every right to access.

Their fear of the out-group is entirely imaginary. Aces don’t take anything away from the LGBTQ+ community. Diversity is not a threat. Exclusionists just think it is because they’re authoritarians and authoritarians are always fearful and xenophobic.

This is not rocket science. Exclusionists argue that aces are a threat to the community because they take resources away from us. When we demonstrate how faulty that reasoning is, they fall back to claiming that aces aren’t actually oppressed. When we demonstrate how faulty and immoral that is, they fall back to their actual position.

Aces are the enemy, so exclusionists are going to label them as cishets and drive them out of the community for the sake of everyone’s safety.

And when we point out how that last argument isn’t just faulty, but also immoral and disgusting? Their true colors show and slurs and insults abound. Scratch an exclusionist and a hateful bigot bleeds.Your position is ignorant and tone deaf. You don’t understand what authoritarianism is and I find it personally insulting that you’d try to shame me into silence because you’re either too ignorant of the facts or too uncomfortable to acknowledge them.

Exclusionists are authoritarians. Learn to deal with it.

This is a good post.

I just want to add this:

When establishing an ‘out-group’ to harass and blame for all their problems, authoritarians frequently – maybe always – aim at people of similar or less social power than themselves, but claim that the designated out-group is more powerful than them.

This paints the authoritarian group as an underdog fighting a great foe, which encourages internal solidarity. But the bonus is doubled because the ‘great foe’ is actually fairly easy to gain political or legislative victories over; pretending this is nigh-impossible makes every victory a huge morale booster.

Examples:

TWERFs target trans women as the outgroup, but claim they are really fighting cis men.

SWERFs target sex workers as the outgroup, but claim they are fighting sex traffickers/the porn industry.

Exclusionists target ace people as the outgroup, but claim they are really fighting straight, cis people.

White nationalists target non-white refugees as the outgroup (& many others), but claim they are really fighting invaders who want to commit white genocide.

Gatekeepers need excuses for gatekeeping, after all, or they’re out of a job. But it’s not fun to gatekeep when you’re facing real enemies that might hurt you, so keeping busy with the ones you can kick around easily is a common pastime.

somethingaboutsomethingelse:

lordhellebore:

nonbinarypastels:

I absolutely think there’s a time and a place to talk about the differences between systematic oppression vs. discrimination vs. prejudice, I just don’t think that when someone is talking about the awful shit they have been through because of some facet of their identity or their life is that time or place.

When someone is discussing their own lived experiences, particularly when they’re bad experiences, and you respond with “lol okay but you’re not oppressed for ___”…what exactly does that accomplish?

Maybe they’re not oppressed for that, maybe what they’re facing is prejudice and discrimination from people because of that prejudice instead, but prejudice and discrimination are still shitty things! They’re still awful to experience! They’re still alienating and abrasive and even violent. And while prejudice against someone because of THIS thing might seem small in the grand scheme of things compared to the oppression someone else faces for THAT thing, to the individual facing that prejudice and facing that discrimination it is still a big fucking deal. It still has a significant impact on their life, it is still detrimental to their quality of life, and those things matter.

A lot of (if not most of) the people who like to pull the “well you’re not oppressed for blah blah blah” card out are doing that to say that those things don’t matter. The prejudice you experience doesn’t matter. The discrimination you experience doesn’t matter. The negative impact it has on you doesn’t matter. It’s all too small to matter and all these other things (the real oppression going on in the world) matter more so shut up about it and deal.

It’s oppression olympics 2.0, it says “other people have it worse than you do so you have no right to complain”, and it’s bullshit.

Also, it seems to me that there is like, some validity catalogue now when it comes to oppression, prejudice etc. As in, if you’re suffering from XYZ kind of prejudice/discrimination, that’s terrible and you’re valid, but if it’s ABC, then you’re just whining and should shut up. And EFG characteristics by default disqualify you from being ‘allowed’ to ever complain about being treated poorly.

Which is all kinds of destructive and does nothing to better society overall.

Arguing whether death by an angry mob is worse than death by a thousand cuts over a prolonged period of time is worse, misses the point that BOTH axis of abuse lead to death and suffering.

cazort:

cloudfreed:

It’s LGB AND T honey and if you can’t do the whole acronym then yes stay home no one wants to be around you

It always strikes me as a bit ridiculous when people talk about “agreeing with” trans people. Agreeing with me about what? My favorite flavor of ice cream. Mine is Hazelnut.

WTF YOU THINK VANILLA IS YOUR FAVORITE FLAVOR WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU OMG YOU AREN’T ALLOWED AT PRIDE.

WTF do people mean by “agree with”?

I think the dialogue surrounding trans people would be hugely enhanced if people would realize that trans people are really diverse and have a huge range of viewpoints even on issues affecting trans people like how to advance trans rights, how to treat and handle and talk about things like medical transition, we even disagree on basic definitions sometimes.

I would really like to sit down with this person and anyone else who says they “don’t agree with trans people” and hash out more specifically what they mean and see if I can at least influence them to stop making blanket statements like this.

Source: tygressofaera

clatterbane:

Come to think of it, maybe my favorite slur combo was one I got to hear when I was probably 17 or 18. And this random middle-aged businessman type started frothing at the mouth about a friend and me being (expletives deleted) “Lesbo Dyke Bitches”. With that exact phrase repeated multiple times, presumably so nobody would get confused about the type of dyke bitches he meant? Maybe to designate us as next level dyke bitches? Who knows.

I’d had all of that thrown at me separately more than enough, but never before or again as a Special Compound Slur.

That was random enough that it was even darkly funny at the time. He didn’t much like my response, but oh well. My friend was scared until she had basically dragged me several blocks away from the dude, but then she eventually busted out laughing too.

Bit of a shame we never did start a band. But, of course that got to be a running joke for several years, with other people we knew welcome as fellow Lesbo Dyke Bitches.

At any rate, I have gotten to hear just about every even vaguely relevant slur possible over the past 30 years or so–including a number misapplied badly enough that you had to wonder if they knew what that term was even supposed to mean. If usually not as part of such crap amusing combo deals. And I love being told what is supposed to be blanket offensive enough for everyone to stop reclaiming now. Maybe especially by people with sufficiently different experiences there.

Reminded of this one again, with still more on this topic coming across my dash today.

(Relevant: When I first started figuring out that I’m not straight, in 2004, I was MUCH more comfortable calling myself queer and calling myself a dyke than with any other terms. If someone had dared to call me a homosexual to my face I would have decked them.

That Lesbo Dyke Bitches episode happened ca. 1992. At that point, I was personally much more OK with queer and dyke than pretty much anything else that had been leveled at me/the other options on offer. I did end up decking a couple of people over persistent aggressive lesboing back then. As that person was also stressing, people’s experiences and associations can vary so much.

And I did become more politically aware–and started coming to terms with the fact that I was definitely not straight, whatever the details might be–precisely during the late ‘80s-early ’90s. Which I know influenced how I approach some things.)

hazel2468:

Me: Given all that’s been going on, and especially with the TERFs that led London Pride, I think it’s a good time to address the fact that we have a serious issue with inclusion on this site, specifically on sapphic/wlw blogs. A lot of blogs that claim to be inclusive of sapphics are actually really exclusive/tansphobic/aphobic/generally unwelcoming to a large majority of wlw. And it’s time that all of us- lesbians, bi, pan, poly, ace, trans,nb, ALL wlw band together for a more welcoming, inclusive environment on tumblr. Because TERFs and exclusionists and gatekeeping hurt all of us in the end and only make it harder for wlw to find a place to be themselves online.

Y’all Hellspawn: omg this is so lesbophobic/ why do you hate women?

madamethursday:

mattmacburn:

you all need to think very fucking carefully about repeating this “queer is a slur” horseshit, because it serves a very particular purpose that is definitely not in the interest of the vast majority of the queer (gasp!) community.

(screencaps from the ever-erudite Aevee Bee: https://twitter.com/MammonMachine/status/1015730533303611392?s=19 )

[Image: screencaps of tweets from @MammonMachine:

“Hey, remember a year ago, when folx decided out of nowhere ‘queer’ was a slur again, despite its ubiquitous decades long use in academia and advocacy groups, and thens creamed at trans ppl who told them this was TERF rhetoric they were repeating?”

Beneath is picture of an outdoor protest with partial text that reads: “So they’re allowing a group of TERFS to star…”“I’m referring to the “lesbian, not queer” sign there)

“This rhetoric was used against a local queer and trans center in the US that I am close to; it’s pretty blatant and common! It’s so upsetting to see grooming from hate groups work because people want to yell at girls so much.“

"They spread this because they think ‘queer’ is too nonspecific and thus, of course, much more inclusive of people they don’t think belong, like trans folx, especially trans women. Trying to rebrand it as a slur is to make it feel toxic to too without questioning why.”]

Source: mattmacburn

UPDATED: Pride in London cites ‘hot weather’ for anti-trans group being allowed to lead parade

cannibality:

rememberwhenyoutried:

rememberwhenyoutried:

rememberwhenyoutried:

Protect trans people from #terfs, and useless “allies”.

Links: first tweet, second tweet, full video (Facebook link)

We got TERFs, sympathisers, or cowards in the Pride London directors.

two TERFs did this in Auckland, New Zealand as well. this is a problem to combat.

UPDATED: Pride in London cites ‘hot weather’ for anti-trans group being allowed to lead parade

fierceawakening:

pro-aspec-lesbian:

ace-angel:

‘bi people can pass as straight!’

anyone can pass as straight, if they silence themselves enough.

SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!

BTW, I’m primarily attracted to women. I doubt that, should I find a life partner, it’ll be a man. I just see no reason to pretend I’m not attracted to men, because I’m not sure who that benefits other than mean people.

When these gremlins say “I don’t have to care about you because you’ll probably end up with a man,” they’re saying “I’m not listening to you; I just want you to do something that makes you an easier target.”